[quote who="kingbee" comment="44if not a deliberate attempt at deception, it's merely a matter of ignorance.america's laws and legal system is, for the most part, both on the federal and state level (with several exceptions, most notably louisiana), grounded in english common law.   english common law is primarily derived from roman law. if you have any doubts whatsoever, please consult the works of blackstone and holmes. [/quote]

Roman law changed when christianity came to power mate.  English law is based of Roman law because of Papal influence, not because Romans were in the area.  The Angles and Saxons did not use Roman law as a base till it was retroduced by Christians.

Lula posts:

Bingo!

Kingbee,

I saw and heard Obama's interview with George Stephanopolous. Immediately after Obama said,

Let's not play games. What I was suggesting -- you're absolutely right that John McCain has not talked about my Muslim faith. And you're absolutely right that that has not come--

George immediately "corrected" him saying "Christian faith". 

My point of post #5 stands...

Obama calls himself a Christian, but by his 100% pro-abortion voting record, he doesn't walk the Christian walk. Obama is a hypocrite in that he calls himself a Christian, but doesn't act Christian by virtue of his 100% voting record on abortion, including infanticide.

Kingbee posts:   

Obama said what he said...sure, good people can take it differently.....my point wasn't so much about his saying "my Muslim faith" as was that he claims  to be a practicing Christian....either way, both the Muslim and Christian faiths condemn the grisly practice of abortion....

You go too far Kingbee. The interview itself clears the GOP of your slam.

Knock, knock, Obama's running for President.   

Of course good people are going to scrutinize his history and character...that, in effect, is what the political process and electing our President is all about....except, of course,  by the mainstream media who has kept Obama's Muslim heritage veeeery quiet..

Don't run for president if you can't take the scrutiny. And speaking of scrutiny...what about the adulation the mainstream media has given him? They are roaring around all Alaska trying to dig up something on Palin , but why haven't they traveled to Africa and reported on the whole of Obama's family life and background? 

Getting back to this interview and Obama's slip of "my Muslim faith"....and your claim that good Christians such as me are devoid of scruples etc. etc....

It would appear that it's Obama is the one caught in the lie......

Here's a quote from Aaron Klein's Sept. 10th, World Net Daily follow-up report of the interview.....

The statements came amid an exchange in which Obama accused Republicans of spreading "lies" that he is a Muslim. McCain, though, has strongly condemned such accusations.

"These guys love to throw a rock and hide their hand," Obama said.

But Stephanopoulos corrected the Illinois senator, stating, "The McCain campaign has never suggested you have Muslim connections."

Obama replied: "I don't think that when you look at what is being promulgated on Fox News, let's say, and Republican commentators who are closely allied to these folks."

"But John McCain said that's wrong," Stephanopoulos shot back.

Obama's momentary slip was immediately picked up by scores of Internet blogs.

Obama 'quite religious in Islam'

Obama has long denied he was ever a Muslim. His campaign site states: "Senator Obama has never been a Muslim, was not raised as a Muslim, and is a committed Christian."

But as WND reported, public records in Indonesia listed Obama as a Muslim during his early years, and a number of childhood friends claimed to the media Obama was once a mosque-attending Muslim.

Obama's campaign several times has wavered in response to reporters queries regarding the senator's childhood faith.

Commenting on a recent Los Angeles Times report quoting a childhood friend stating Obama prayed in a mosque – something the presidential candidate said he never did – Obama's campaign released a statement explaining the senator "has never been a practicing Muslim."

Widely distributed reports have noted that in January 1968, Obama was registered as a Muslim at Jakarta's Roman Catholic Franciscus Assisi Primary School under the name Barry Soetoro. He was listed as an Indonesian citizen whose stepfather, listed on school documents as "L Soetoro Ma," worked for the topography department of the Indonesian Army.

Catholic schools in Indonesia routinely accept non-Catholic students but exempt them from studying religion. Obama's school documents, though, wrongly list him as being Indonesian.

After attending the Assisi Primary School, Obama was enrolled – also as a Muslim, according to documents – in the Besuki Primary School, a public school in Jakarta.

The Loatze blog, run by an American expatriate in Southeast Asia who visited the Besuki school, noted: "All Indonesian students are required to study religion at school, and a young 'Barry Soetoro,' being a Muslim, would have been required to study Islam daily in school. He would have been taught to read and write Arabic, to recite his prayers properly, to read and recite from the Quran and to study the laws of Islam."

Indeed, in Obama's autobiography, "Dreams From My Father," he acknowledged studying the Quran and describes the public school as "a Muslim school."

"In the Muslim school, the teacher wrote to tell mother I made faces during Quranic studies," wrote Obama.

The Indonesian media have been flooded with accounts of Obama's childhood Islamic studies, some describing him as a religious Muslim.

Speaking to the country's Kaltim Post, Tine Hahiyary, who was principal of Obama's school while he was enrolled there, said she recalls he studied the Quran in Arabic.

"At that time, I was not Barry's teacher, but he is still in my memory" claimed Tine, who is 80 years old.

The Kaltim Post said Obama's teacher, named Hendri, died.

"I remember that he studied 'mengaji (recitation of the Quran)," Tine said, according to an English translation by Loatze.

Mengaji, or the act of reading the Quran with its correct Arabic punctuation, is usually taught to more religious pupils and is not known as a secular study.

Also, Loatze documented the Indonesian daily Banjarmasin Post interviewed Rony Amir, an Obama classmate and Muslim, who described Obama as "previously quite religious in Islam."

"We previously often asked him to the prayer room close to the house. If he was wearing a sarong (waist fabric worn for religious or casual occasions) he looked funny," Amir said.

The Los Angeles Times, which sent a reporter to Jakarta, quoted Zulfin Adi, who identified himself as among Obama's closest childhood friends, stating the presidential candidate prayed in a mosque, something Obama's campaign claimed he never did.

"We prayed, but not really seriously, just following actions done by older people in the mosque. But as kids, we loved to meet our friends and went to the mosque together and played," said Adi.

Friday prayers

Aside from a new website to fight purported smears, Obama's official campaign site has a page titled "Obama has never been a Muslim, and is a committed Christian." The page states, "Obama never prayed in a mosque. He has never been a Muslim, was not raised a Muslim, and is a committed Christian who attends the United Church of Christ."

But the campaign changed its tune when it issued a "practicing Muslim" clarification to the Los Angeles Times.

An article in March by the Chicago Tribune apparently disputes Adi's statements to the L.A. paper. The Tribune caught up with Obama's declared childhood friend, who now describes himself as only knowing Obama for a few months in 1970 when his family moved to the neighborhood. Adi said he was unsure about his recollections of Obama.

But the Tribune found Obama did attend mosque.

"Interviews with dozens of former classmates, teachers, neighbors and friends show that Obama was not a regular practicing Muslim when he was in Indonesia," states the Tribune article.

It quotes the presidential candidate's former neighbors and third-grade teacher recalling Obama "occasionally followed his stepfather to the mosque for Friday prayers."

Daniel Pipes, director of the Middle East Forum, notes the Tribune article – cited by liberal blogs as refuting claims Obama is Muslim – actually implies Obama was an irregularly practicing Muslim and twice confirms Obama attended mosque services.

In a free-ranging interview with the New York Times, Obama described the Muslim call to prayer as "one of the prettiest sounds on Earth at sunset."

The Times' Nicholos Kristof wrote Obama recited, "with a first-class [Arabic] accent," the opening lines of the Muslim call to prayer.

The first few lines of the call to prayer state:

Allah is Supreme!
Allah is Supreme!
Allah is Supreme! Allah is Supreme!
I witness that there is no god but Allah
I witness that there is no god but Allah
I witness that Muhammad is his prophet ...

Some attention also has been paid to Obama's paternal side of the family, including his father and his brother, Roy.

Writing in a chapter of his book describing his 1992 wedding, the presidential candidate stated: "The person who made me proudest of all was Roy. Actually, now we call him Abongo, his Luo name, for two years ago he decided to reassert his African heritage. He converted to Islam and has sworn off pork and tobacco and alcohol."

Still, Obama says he was raised by his Christian mother and repeatedly has labeled as "smears" several reports attempting to paint him as a Muslim.

"Let's make clear what the facts are: I am a Christian. I have been sworn in with a Bible. I pledge allegiance [to the American flag] and lead the Pledge of Allegiance sometimes in the United States Senate when I'm presiding," he told the Times of London earlier this year.

Please don’t push too hard, secularism is a religion too, and he wishes to believe what he wants to believe. Just because you don’t believe it does not make it less valid. Those that wish to deny that there is a God or minimize the works of God are free to do so as long as they respect the people’s beliefs, and I ask that you respect his belief, no matter how wrong you may see it.

KINGBEE POSTS #44

kINGBEE,

As far as fooling people, I'm willing to let this article by Klein be read and let them decide as far as Barack Hussein Obama is concerned.

As for me, I don't want him in the White House for one reason and one reason only, it's because if elected, he's promised to keep the killing of innocent life in the womb going full throttle in all the Planned Parenthood and other abortuaries.

As a former teacher of the bible I have to disagree with you. not all Christians are of the belief that abortion is wrong or against God’s law. The catholic religion is the only one that has had a policy of no unnatural death. Most Christian sects have a no killing policy but the bible is against murder not killing. The “thou shalt not kill” is a mistranslation and is thou shalt not murder. Murdering a baby in the womb or from the womb is bad for many reasons but depending on your own belief system can be okay.  I don’t like abortions I feel they are wrong, and I hate government sponsored abortions because it goes against the constitution. Senator Obama is pushing his religious beliefs on the rest of us which makes him a fascist like Senator Clinton both are wrong for the job of president or the post they currently hold because they are anti-America., or at least their stated beliefs are.

Indeed.  God loves a good killing spree.   Floods, wars, total city destruction...it's like God's playing an RTS or SimCity or something.

~Zoo

A common defense for the godly:

"Thou shalt not kill[murder?]"

Some think the rest of us are ignorant; incapable of checking their facts perhaps (afterall...their entire dogma is in one easy to acquire book or free to download.)

I shall now impeech your Bible with...your Bible.

In the plains of Moab by the Jordan at Jericho, the Lord spoke to Moses, saying: Speak to the Israelites, and say to them: When you cross over the Jordan into the land of Canaan, you shall drive out all the inhabitants of the land from before you, destroy all their figured stones, destroy all their cast images, and demolish all their high places. You shall take possession of the land and settle in it, for I have given you the land to possess (Num 33:50-53).

When the Lord your God brings you into the land that you are about to enter and occupy, and he clears away many nations before you — the Hittites, the Girgashites, the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations mightier and more numerous than you — and when the Lord your God gives them over to you and you defeat them, then you must utterly destroy them. Make no covenant with them and show them no mercy (Deut 7:1-2).

 

But as for the towns of these peoples that the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, you must not let anything that breathes remain alive. You shall annihilate them—the Hittites and the Amorites, the Canaanites and the Perizzites, the Hivites and the Jebusites—just as the Lord your God has commanded, so that they may not teach you to do all the abhorrent things that they do for their gods, and you thus sin against the Lord your God (Deut 20:16-18).

Then, when the Israelites encountered the Canaanite king of Arad on the way to the promised land, they prayed to Yahweh and he “listened to the voice of Israel, and handed over the Canaanites; and they utterly destroyed them and their towns; so the place was called Hormah” (Num 21:1-3). The Israelites later killed off a few other towns on their journey, Moses later reporting, “we utterly destroyed them… in each city utterly destroying men, women, and children (Deut 3:6). And lets not get started with the infamous book of Job or Leviticus which provided the back bone for enforcing slavary, killing other non-Jews/Christians (and themselves at times) and the subjugation of woman.

...they devoted to destruction by the edge of the sword all in the city, both men and women, young and old, oxen, sheep, and donkeys (Josh 6:21).

 

I dare the godly to excuse these holy mandates without resorting to "If God deem so thus so it must be right." Indeed this question of is religion inherently ethical is long old with its apex arriving during the Enlightenment Era. The common consensus was that 'Holy' does not equal ethics, morality is innate in nature and that people obey for fear of punishment rather then loving authority.

I beseech the reasoned here, let no godly who qoute the Exodus to copy-right morality. Either the bible fueled by the minds of man or the mind of a divine; and ANY issue in it must be defended if its fans assert that it is the final and unalterable truth. To cherry-pick morals from holy books and to ignore the outdated morals by the religious further supports the notion that these books are indeed not inherently holy. They don't REALLY want to outlaw shrimp - do they?

Leviticus 11:9-12 says:
⁹ These shall ye eat of all that are in the waters: whatsoever hath fins and scales in the waters, in the seas, and in the rivers, them shall ye eat.
¹⁰ And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you:
¹¹ They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcases in abomination.
¹² Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you.

And some people seem incapable of participating in a thread on Palin's religious rights without attacking religion in general.

*sigh* Your right Paladin.

And some are ignorant like you. I see you are well versed at quoting the bible, do you have a point? If so feel free to express it. Because nothing you have quoted is in conflict with the commandments. I would be happy to explain it to you off this thread in a private e-mail if you would like. This way you would not look so silly and ignorant. I have a feeling I know what you are getting at but you failed to make your point or even suggest you have a point based on what you quoted.

I have never understood how people on the religious extremist left feel that if they quote something everyone will see what they see, and when we don’t we are ignorant, stupid, mind numbed robots incapable of free or individual thought.

Of course you have the right to attack her, but I wonder how a thread about Sarah Palin's religious rights somehow translates to an attack on religion in general.

Of course, most discussions stray down all sorts of roads, but I notice that some missionaries just can't seem to discuss anything without proselyting.

Then you will feel pleased to know that the one those people saw as their creator ordered them to make war on people that had offended him. This is why the mistranslation from murder to kill is a difficult one for you to grasp. You wish to use no religious rules and have them justify your beliefs about religion. If you believe in God then you do what God tells you to do. If you don’t then you are free to ignore what you will. These people were told to do something by God, after seeing him destroy the Egyptian army, the pillar of fire to guide them at night and the pillar of dust to guide them by day, the daily meals of bread provided for them where there was no grain to make bread are all things that man could not do on his own. Then this God person says I don’t like those people destroy them for me. Are you going to say no?

As to the loving authority, your parents told you to do or not do something and you disobeyed. They punished you. And you learned that life has consequences, you had free will to do as you pleased. The next time you are told to do or not do something you know you will be punished for disobedience. You still have free will to do as you please. This time you obey, do you obey out of fear of punishment? Yes. Do you still love your parents? Yes. What is hypocritical about that? God is a loving god, he can love you and punish you at the same time as your parents did.

Belief in this God person is a choice, no one can be made to love or follow the teachings of the one they call God. If your child misbehaves you have the right as the parent to kill that child according to the bible. By law you have to take the child to the town elders, explain how the child will not listen and obey. List the destructive things the child has done. If the elders agree the child is stoned to death. The best I can figure out from this is if you are so bad that your own parents want you dead then society needs to get rid of you. If you are envious of someone and you want them dead and kill them that is murder. You are out of control and you need to be put down. You seem to want it where God is love and all your faults are forgiven. You can have that but you have to accept the rules of the religion in order to get it. You want the perks but not the responsibilities.

Governor Palin is being attacked by ignorant people like you who have no idea of the requirements of her faith and use her faith for political gain. Yes, you have the ability to read the words of the bible but you fail to understand their meaning. You take what is written out of context and scream hypocrisy! When you don’t know what it is to be a Christian. Not your fault you have people like Jessie Jackson as your guide, hypocrites like him cause more harm than good.

Your misunderstanding of the bible is frightening! I would strongly suggest you take a class in religious study before you attempt to push your misguided hate on people. And yes, if you are a Jew you don’t eat shrimp. It is called dietary law, if you are a Jew you don’t eat certain foods or combinations of foods. You would know this if you did more that look at the bible for things to attack and hate. Funny how you seem to be looking for a loving god but all you seem to find is hate.

Paladin77 #50

Paladin77, Paladin, Palidan,

This is dishing out moral relativism and I'm ringing up "No Sale".  

There is but one God and only 1 set of His holy laws...In the case of abortion it doesn't matter a wit, if it says thou shalt not kill or thou shalt not murder.....either way a helpless, most innocent child of God gets his life snuffed out and a nation that mocks God and His laws will reap the whirlwind.